The Great Friday Link Out: Bail [Barry] Bonds

  • I saw a link to this article– Barry Bonds Is An Asshole. But His Conviction Is Pointless.– and thought it was some random blogger going for shock. It’s actually a Village Voice piece with an interesting question: Why should the federal government try a baseball player for allegedly lying about using steroids which weren’t illegal or banned by baseball at the time? Moreover, why is it perjury for someone to lie about something that wasn’t a crime? I don’t know if I agree, since Bonds’ alleged perjury came in testimony before a grand jury investigating BALCO and any lies he told could have hindered that, but it’s an interesting question nonetheless.
  • Speaking of Barry, Rob Neyer thinks it’s “likely” he’ll get in the Hall of Fame– through the writers, too, not just the Veterans Committee route which has seemed like the only one for any player accused of using steroids.
  • World War II baseball blogger Gary Bedingfield has undertaken a cool project. Acknowledging that most of the minor league ballplayers who died in that war never appeared on a baseball card, Gary has created an Ultimate Sacrifice Baseball Card Set for his site.
  • Another great post from Josh Wilker, this one on the underrated Amos Otis, who was ranked by Bill James as the 22nd greatest center fielder of all time and apparently used a bat with “enough cork and superballs in there to blow away anything.”
  • Joe Posnanski writes a post relating Manny Ramirez, the Hall of Fame, and former president Lyndon Johnson which, he writes, “gives you a pretty good idea about how my ridiculous mind works and why I didn’t get many dates as a young man.” Yes, but I say a little esoteric knowledge in history never hurt anyone, speaking as someone who spent part of Thursday evening reading an excerpt of The Selling of the President while in the bathroom. I’ll find a way to tie Richard Nixon into an upcoming post.
  • I grew up in Sacramento, have long been a Kings fan (in bad times and good and bad again), and have resigned myself to the strong possibility my team could be moving to Anaheim next year. Team ownership has until Monday to file relocation papers, and if it goes through, the Kings have already played their last game in Sacramento, and I’ll have to contemplate the bleak prospect of becoming a Warriors fan. It’s nice to see my hometown get some words of support from, of all places, a Yankees blog.

22 thoughts on “The Great Friday Link Out: Bail [Barry] Bonds

  1. So. The govt finally got Bonds. And his crime? Lying to the liars club, that same band of bandits and thieves who lie congenitally to the american public. Is there any profession in which concealing the truth is considered a virtue, taken to the highest degree by its practitioners than politics? These same gatekeepers of morality whose main occupation besides getting elected to public office and feathering their pockets with broken promises and stolen goods (What else would you call taxes?) are the ones we should be looking to for guidelines of what’s right and moral? Why should we be skeptical of these wise men who can start endless wars, solve all the problems in life and spend non existent money that our posterity will be hard pressed to ever pay off? Taking Bonds off the streets is certainly going to make the country a better and safer place isn’t it? Just the thought makes so giddy and excited that it makes me want to go hug a TSA agent.(If he promises not to grope me.)

    There’s a principle in the common law that says as long as there’s no victim with intent to harm, there’s no crime. Simple. You may hurt yourself, but that’s your choice and as long as you don’t hurt others, it’s between you, your family, friends and God. But today, in the land of the formerly free and use to be brave, americans will allow themselves to be threatened, cajoled and lied into believing ten different and contradictory facts in one day and think it was their own idea.

    Baseball is entertainment period. Forget the trappings, the records, the hype and hyperbole. It’s entertainment and nothing more. There’s no cosmic significance to hitting, pitching, throwing and catching a ball…period! Enjoy it and don’t take it seriously or make it into what it isn’t.

    If the performers wish to extend their careers as long as they can by using performance enhancers, who are we to say? If we’re going to be real hard core purists, let’s make sure no one can ever have Tommy John surgery, or micro surgery that’s resurrected careers and restored players to elite levels. Let’s do away with better nutrition that extends careers. Isn’t it nice to know that Mickey Mantle didn’t cheat himself or any of us by letting his body and health go to hell?

    While we’re at it, let’s get rid of plastic surgery for those in the film industries. How dare them try to make themselves look younger, more beautiful or handsome and to fool the public with their artificial looks. Let’s let the world go back to the days when the average life expectancy was around 40 years. Maybe that way, we wouldn’t have so much time to worry about things that don’t matter.

  2. I agree with you Vinnie on the point that the lawmakers are making much ado about nothing regarding Bonds. This was a waste of the taxpayers money. There are far more important issues for our government to do with and it is amazingly hypocritical.

    The Commissioner should have been the one to deal with this, but he and the owners and the players union wouldn’t as they turned a blind eye to it because the explosion of franken-home runs were bringing fans to the ball-park.

    I do disagree with Vinnie that ballplayers are just entertainers. Like it or not, they are heros and role models to younger people. Were that not so, we would not have blog sites like this where many articles have been written about the admired heroics of so many players. Numerous blogs, articles and books and movies have been written about the courage of players like Jackie Robinson, Ted Williams, Mickey Mantle, etc, etc.

    For me Roberto Clemente has inspired my life and helped me to see how important it was to help other people in need. Jackie Robinson inspired me to have courage in the face of enormous odds and to stand up for what I believe.
    And I know that most fans of the game have similar feelings about their own heros, whether it is Ted Williams sacrifice of his career to serve his country or Al Kaline’s quiet dignity on the field who spoke with his bat and and his glove in a spectacular way.

    Beyond that hero worship also follows the pattern that was laid for younger aspiring athletes not just in baseball but in other sports as well who also used PED’s recklessly in order to stand out or at least remain competitive in their quests to make it the pro’s or the olympics or where ever their dreams could take them. These modern hero’s set an example of this is what you must do to remain competitive.

    The fact is that most PED’s are not safe. I doubt if it is coincidence the bizarre conditions that Jason Giambi suffered from. I don’t think it is signs of some sfe drug that Bonds’ head would grow two sizes! Heads do not grow in adulthood, let alone after puberty. These issues have been around for decades and influenced generations of competitive athletes in pro and amateur circles. Lyle Alzado admitted that anabolic steroids contributed to his death.

    Steroids alone are not to be messed with. They screw with the metabolics of a human being and even much lower doses of all different types of steroids, more wisely used to treat various medical conditions have significant side-effects. I know this for a fact. I have to use them in order to live. I’ve only had to use them for the past five years in quite low doses. Shortly after starting I had already developed a number of side-effects. Not the least being a reduction in my immune function. But I have no choice. It is use it or die. Young people who’s bodies are still forming, Lord knows what issues they might deal with later in life.

    Your taking it to the extreme and you know it when you compare restorative surgeries like the Tommy John surgery to be the same. This is not a case where Jose Canseco is helping to do the surgery as he, no medical expert, might have helped others to receive steroid injections. And comparing a healing measure to something that is being used that we have no track record with in these doses and in effect is giving a freakish advantage over other players who choose to play the game more honestly.

    Plastic surgeries for movie stars are ridiculous and also spread a culture of unreal looks along with airbrushing to impressionable people of all ages. But they are not illegal drugs that mess with your body in untold ways. These latter comparisons hold no water.

  3. Hello Alvy and thanks for your well thought out answers. If I may, let me try to clarify mine just a bit for you. The fact that others make ball players into heroes has nothing to do with the ballplayer or even if he’s worthy of being called a hero. We make our priorities and judgments in life, many of them being wrong and based something that has nothing whatsoever with the intentions of others. These men play their games for great sums of money, not to see who gets the laurel wreath or who wins the keg of beer. This is how they support their families and earn their living. To make someone a hero for their athletic prowess seems to me to be a lack of judgment on the hero worshiper and speaks to his priorities. There’s nothing more courageous about an athlete playing through injuries than there is a man who gets up every day to go to work at a job he doesn’t care for so that he can take care of his family. This is the quiet courage that we should recognize but instead gets overlooked.

    That you were inspired by the lives of certain ballplayers was good for you and for others I’m sure, but you would have found the same strength within yourself had you first looked there and recognized you had it all along. It’s no different than the person who turns to faith or religion to inspire and help him direct his life. Whatever works and makes your life better is to be commended but not to be used by everyone.

    With the money involved in sports today, it can only be expected that an aspiring athlete will look for any advantage available to increase his ability and gain himself an edge. When you get that close to your goal, an appeal to sportsmanship or becoming an example for others will be one of the last things that anyone will be thinking about.

    And why baseball? Do you think that football players get that big all by themselves? Pro wrestling? Why the attention on baseball?

    Let me ask another question. Are we children who need to be told what we can and can’t put in our bodies? Who are our parents? Don’t you think we have the right to take whatever risks in life we wish to, or do we have to get permission, and from who? How about all those dare devil sports? Aren’t those far more dangerous to life and limb than taking a steroid? Ever consider how much animal steroids and hormones you ingest just from eating a steak or some fried chicken? Have a glass of milk? What do you think is in that stuff? But that’s okay because the same people saying steroids are bad are the ones saying that it’s okay to take them in the form of your food. Makes sense to me.

    Now I don’t know your background but you must be a doctor or some other expert in the field to be able to make the statement that PED’s aren’t safe. Where are your studies? What scientific proof do you have other than what you think or are repeating that someone told you or you read about? The proof falls on those making the claim, not on those using them. How many athletes have died from steroids beside Alzado? Can you prove the cause and effect that Caminitti died because of them? Why is Jose Canseco the picture of health when as the poster child for juicing. Shouldn’t he should be dead by now?

    If you want to know the truth, it’s safer to take steroids than it is to be a pro football player or a boxer. The physical and mental damage in these sports is clear and proven. Think we should ban them too?

    Let me say too that I’m sorry to hear of your health condition and the effects your treatment are having on you. This is to say that it would be far safer for anyone using or planning to use steroids to be in contact and under professional supervision when using them. The alternative is the likelihood of misuse and the real possible damage as a result of self administration. Isn’t this exactly the problem here?

    Is it taking it to the extreme to point out that steroids do in fact help the body to recover faster, to build strength and added stamina and extend careers? That’s the same thing surgery and modern medical treatments do and are suppose to do. Shouldn’t we consider that under the controlled use by doctors that these steroids and hormones might be just as effective and beneficial to the athlete? We learn by experimentation. There is nothing inherently wrong or immoral about using them.

    Steroids aren’t illegal drugs. They can be dispensed with a doctors prescription, just like the ones you’re taking. You might also like to inform yourself a bit more on the history of why only certain drugs became “illegal” and who benefits from it. You might also like to study up a bit on prohibition and why not only didn’t it work, but how it set in motion what’s become known as organized crime. Then, you might want to do a bit of examining how you came to accept that a few people could make all kinds of decisions for you about your life and what you can and can’t do with it. Maybe you’d come to see that it boils down to your and everyone else having their natural rights and liberties taken away without their even knowing it. And we wonder why the world is the way it is?

    Take care and I hope you feel better and that one day you’ll be free of the meds.

  4. Thanks for the reply, Vinnie. What you suggest about heroes may be true—for you and some others. But it does not make it right for everyone else.
    The hero worship of the athlete is something that goes back centuries even into the mythologies of all cultures. It is a primal source of what has made sports so popular in the world for centuries. The ability to do what no one else has done before; to rise to the occasion against great obstacles. It is the same type of cathartic event that goes on in the theater. Catharsis, a purging and purifying of emotions is also an ancient experience that to this day is still important tool or personal growth and shining a light towards excellence whether it is in sports, science, art, etc . This is what can inspire people to their own potentially great accomplishments whether it is done under the spotlight or not. There is nothing wrong with that. To suggest that when you say: “To make someone a hero for their athletic prowess seems to me to be a lack of judgment on the hero worshiper and speaks to his priorities.” is not a kind or fair thing to say to on this blog. I doubt that most people are here because these athletes are mere entertainers. Were that the case who would care who is in the HOF? Most of us here who frequent this blog were impacted by baseball in our youth when we are most impressionable. This is a time when we look to others for guidance and inspiration. To suggest that a child should have the point of view that you have chosen to take is to not allow the child to be a child and to belittle those of us who were inspired by the very heroes we still, as older men, mythologize for their great acts on and off the field. The impressions of our childhood good and bad follow us throughout our lives. You cannot ever really divorce yourself from it. You may learn to see things differently as you have done or in some combination relish those moments of the miraculous when you saw your favorite ball player do the amazing. I agree that my Dad’s getting up and going to work every day for his whole life is as heroic. I love my Dad far more than I love Roberto Clemente or Mickey Mantle. But none the less both men impacted my life as Martin Luther King and other personal heroes have done for me. What makes them heroic is that they are as human as my Dad and did things in front of the world that required courage, great skills and accomplishment under pressure that few people can handle, whether on the field or in the picket line. The coal miner who goes to work every day to provide energy for the country in a dangerous setting is as important to me as Ron Santo was playing his heart out despite debilitating diabetes that eventually killed him. So suggesting that hero worship of an athlete should not be because of the day to day heroics of the rest of us, makes no sense. As a matter of fact, it can be and for me has been an inspiration to do the small things I do each day. I know this is true for many others as well.
    “That you were inspired by the lives of certain ballplayers was good for you and for others I’m sure, but you would have found the same strength within yourself had you first looked there and recognized you had it all along”
    Do you really expect a child to have this deep philosophic point of view? Again you ignore where most of this started for sports fans.
    “Whatever works and makes your life better is to be commended but not to be used by everyone.”
    You really should consider your own words more thoughtfully. Because you are heavily imposing your point of view here on everyone else by diminishing their right to take inspiration from those who accomplish the exceptional.
    Yes, money and fame is what often drives aspiring athletes to do whatever they can to compete. But utilizing substances that are not safe even when under medical care is like playing Russian Roulette.
    I’m not isolating the problem of PED’s to just baseball. I made a point to include all sports. You’re not reading my post fully.
    “Are we children who need to be told what we can and can’t put in our bodies?”
    It’s obviously wise to have guidance here isn’t it. Or would you rather anybody of any age take whatever drug they want? Sure lets allow our kids to “juice” when competing in sports and hey why not sniff that glue after the game too for that great rush? Your point of view here is bordering on a nihilism that is getting a bit far fetched.
    “Ever consider how much animal steroids and hormones you ingest just from eating a steak or some fried chicken? But that’s okay because the same people saying steroids are bad are the ones saying that it’s okay to take them in the form of your food. Makes sense to me.”
    Your rant is getting way off base for this blog, but I’ll respond. I’ve been aware of this since childhood. My family has been eating organically for all those reasons. Actually the doses aren’t even close though to what athletes ingest, so you are wrong there. The trouble with what is in food is in small doses over time that can cumulatively cause health issues with these foods. But no a eating an “Outback” steak isn’t the same as a massive dose of a steroid.
    “Now I don’t know your background but you must be a doctor or some other expert in the field to be able to make the statement that PED’s aren’t safe. Where are your studies? What scientific proof do you have other than what you think or are repeating that someone told you or you read about?”
    You’re being very condescending to make such a statement and not really thoroughly reading my prior comment. But while you’re asking where are your studies to prove the opposite? As I wrote before, my experience comes from first hand experience and a basic knowledge of what steroids can do to people. The most basic issue is that steroids most often significantly diminish immune function in addition other problems and possible side-effects. If you want even some minor proof go listen to the side effects of something as low dosed as a steroid inhaler commercial or google steroids inhalers on the web. They are the lowest dosed forms and safest ways to use steroids and they still have a number of side effects. As I said my experience is up close and personal and as a with most patients who as in my case are striving to stay alive I do my research to do as my primary doctor advises, to learn as much as I can to assist him and my other docs in my own health care.
    “The proof falls on those making the claim, not on those using them. How many athletes have died from steroids beside Alzado?”
    It would be hard to know as only Alzado had the courage to come forward and admit it.
    “Can you prove the cause and effect that Caminitti died because of them?”
    Can you prove that he didn’t?
    “If you want to know the truth, it’s safer to take steroids than it is to be a pro football player or a boxer. The physical and mental damage in these sports is clear and proven. Think we should ban them too?”
    Well actually the effects of these injuries which most often occur later in life are finally getting attention and in pro-football they are now taking measures. The trouble is with PED’s little attention has yet to be paid to it as it also can have a cumulative effect later in life. Just as it took years for sports to begin to address head injuries, it will take years for the same to happen with PED’s.
    “The alternative is the likelihood of misuse and the real possible damage as a result of self administration. Isn’t this exactly the problem here?”
    “Yeah, you betcha”, that is part of it. But again you miss the point that even in these low doses they are potently difficult drugs to deal with.
    Is it taking it to the extreme to point out that steroids do in fact help the body to recover faster, to build strength and added stamina and extend careers?
    Yes, but at a price to their overall health. And even if there are some who “seem to be ok” doesn’t mean it is safe. You cannot use steroids recreationally without eventual problems. Even in medically necessary cases it causes problem. If you want to know why President Kennedy had Addison’s disease for example, it was because of high doses of steroids that killed his adrenals. Those steroids eventually overtime gave him the beefier look that along with a side-effect of Addisons which is that it can turn your skin into a tanned bronze look, actually made him look healthier when in reality he was incredibly ill. The steroids never made him better, it just reduced the inflammations, but wreaked havoc on his overall immune function.
    “Maybe you’d come to see that it boils down to your and everyone else having their natural rights and liberties taken away without their even knowing it. And we wonder why the world is the way it is?”
    I really appreciate that pov. But this is beyond rights and liberties when it at present like passing a loaded gun into an ignorant person’s hands.

  5. Hi Alvy,

    Thanks for your always well thought out reply. You say, “To make someone a hero for their athletic prowess seems to me to be a lack of judgment on the hero worshiper and speaks to his priorities.” is not a kind or fair thing to say to on this blog.”

    It was never my intent to be either unkind or unfair and I feel badly you’ve taken it the wrong way. There’s nothing wrong with taking the best we find in others to praise, up lift us and to emulate, but you might consider that there are limits that need to be placed on what we attribute to them. The point is each of us picks and chooses what we want to take from life in every aspect of it. We need perspective and judgment to assign to each person and each activity what it deserves and no more. If I were to ask if you would like to have others use you as a hero or a roll model, it might make you realize just how unjust we’re asking these athletes, or whoever it is we look up to.

    One of my favorites is Ted Williams, not only because of his genius in mastering whatever he decided to be best at, or for his unreported kindness and charity to others, or even for the fact that he was a great friend to very average people who he fished and hunted with for years. What impressed me is that when he was asked if he considered himself a hero, he was honest enough to answer “no”. He said he’d done many things he wasn’t proud of and regretted having done. In his own heart and mind, he knew he didn’t deserve what so many thrust upon him. I think once a person has reached a certain age and looks back over life, he’d have to honestly say the same thing. It’s only to the young that heroes are heroic. To the more mature, we see ourselves and others more as survivors.

    When we teach our children, we need to teach them not just about the good, but also about the fact that there are bad things that happen and that we shouldn’t be too quick in our judgments, nor try to make others into something they aren’t. Appreciate the accomplishment, cherish the person who does good things, but never try to surpress the truth. The greatest thing we can give to each other is to do justice in every case and circumstance, but let’s not go into the realm of imagination.

    You add, “you are heavily imposing your point of view here on everyone else by diminishing their right to take inspiration from those who accomplish the exceptional.” Where did I impose my view on everyone? Did I tell you that you and everyone had to bend to my view? I’m expressing my opinion in response to the original article and now am expanding on it in light of yours. The last thing I’d ever want or expect is for others to have to obey or think as I do. The fun of baseball is being able to disagree over all kinds of things and go away having learned something new. In this case I’ve learned that I may not have stated my thoughts more clearly, which I hope this will make amends for.

    You suggest that, “utilizing substances that are not safe even when under medical care is like playing Russian Roulette.
    I’m not isolating the problem of PED’s to just baseball. I made a point to include all sports. You’re not reading my post fully.” Maybe not, but I do challenge your qualifications to make such an all inclusive statement and to just as totally rule out the judgment of others who might disagree or not care what you think at all about the subject. In your case, no one is forcing you to use or not use any banned or illegal substance. Will you allow others the same choice, or are we to take your word alone as sufficient to end the discussion?

    You add, “would you rather anybody of any age take whatever drug they want? Sure lets allow our kids to “juice” when competing in sports and hey why not sniff that glue after the game too for that great rush? Your point of view here is bordering on a nihilism that is getting a bit far fetched.” It would be very far fetched especially when I never said it. What are parents for? Do you believe parents should be the ones who teach and decide and protect their children out of love an concern for them? At what age does the child become able to make those decisions for himself? Or maybe we should all remain in a state of suspended childhood until such time as someone qualified tells us what to do?

    I know too that eating one steak isn’t the same as an injection, but the cumulative effects as even you admit can do just as much harm in the long run with the effects now being manifest in our elderly population.

    “……where are your studies to prove the opposite?” you ask? The burden of proof isn’t on me, it’s on you to show that the effects you claim are there. Even beyond that, you still haven’t mentioned why the right doesn’t exist when no one is harmed but the potential user.

    And finally, “Maybe you’d come to see that it boils down to your and everyone else having their natural rights and liberties taken away without their even knowing it. And we wonder why the world is the way it is?”
    I really appreciate that pov. But this is beyond rights and liberties when it at present like passing a loaded gun into an ignorant person’s hands.

    There is nothing beyond rights and liberties that each one of us has. Without them, we’re means to the ends of others who use us as their “human resources”. We see from the wars being waged that you’re at least correct about the point of the dangers of putting loaded guns in the hands of an ignorant person. Live your life as you see fit and leave others alone to live theirs on their own terms. It really works out best that way for all of us.
    Take care and be well. Thanks for your thoughts and insights, even when I may disagree.

  6. Vinnie on this point the potential harm of steroid use and a number of others you are not carefully reading what I’ve written. I’ve already given you a number of examples of the hazards of steroid use from the personal to examples of various public figures and I suggest again that you carefully read the rx sheets for even the lowest doses of steroid medication and the rampant and varied effects it can have as based on medical trials and studies done by the medical establishment. These sheets which often come with the prescribed medicine are quite lengthy and thorough.

  7. Alvy,
    I appreciate your heartfelt opinions and beliefs, while at the same time disagreeing but remaining open to changing as more scientific and medical information becomes available.
    In the meantime, please stay and be well. Keep your chin up and that smile on your face. You have a great deal to contribute both to yourself and others. I’ll continue to be looking forward in the future to reading your thoughts and comments.

  8. I have been involved in powerlifting, bodybuilding and olympic style weightlifting for about 36 years. The list of people that died from chemical abuse is staggering. It is my own believe that the use of steroids never killed anyone if properly cycled. It’s the abuse, the extreme dosages and stacking of several different drugs that leads to the other health problems.

    The new drug of the 80’s was STH. Somatropinne hormone taken from the pituitary gland of a rhesus monkey. The reasoning was that if a monkey was stronger than a human than one could gain super human strength by taking it. I knew this old lifter in Minnesota named Jerry Jones. Jones was getting drugs from Tony Fitton. Jones claimed that Lyle Alzado died from taking contaminated STH he got from Fitton. Neddles to say, STH soon fell out of favor among strength athletes.

    So, one time or another Fitton named names while serving prison time for selling PED’s. Fitton has claimed to have sold PED’s to Stallone, Eastwood and other actors. Another interesting person is Dan Duchaine. He wrote several books about steroids and dieting and even made designer drugs and used himself as a human test subject. His death is rumored to be linked to his past drug use.

    The problem I continue to see with the whole media coverage of the drugs in sports issue is that they really don’t understand what the drugs will do and how addictive in nature the drugs are from a pyscological standpoint. Once you see yourself lifting weights easy that you were strugling with just a few weeks ago, you get a feeling of euphoria. The Sam Fussell book, “Confessions of an Inlikely Bodybuilder” tells of his journey into bodybuilding and drug use. That being said, unless you have actually used PED’s you can’t even begin to address the problem of getting them out of sports. Especially when athletes are chasing a dream and money.

  9. Jeff Everson publishes a magazine called Planet Muscle. He has written several articles about hormone replacement for men and about the correct way for someone to use steroids and what tests to have done on a continual basis while on them. His belief is education is the key. He also believes that men at about age 47 need hormone replacement to become more productive at their jobs and to lead normal lives. What I am saying is, learn as much about an issue as you can before trying to say sonething is bad or good. The media isn’t always right.

  10. Doug,
    Thank you for adding this to the discussion. As we age, we decline in the hormones our bodies naturally produced. There’s no reason why we shouldn’t be able to restore these hormones to the levels when we were young and fit and the opportunities to explore and to add them to our bodies is a choice that each of us has the right to make for themself. Anything that can add to our years and make them healthier and better should be applauded and not criminalized or demonized.
    There’s nothing wrong with anyone deciding to take or not to take them. There’s nothing morally evil in doing so.

  11. I used to lift a few weights for fun at the old Y after basketball or handball. Guys were talking about steroids then and this was in the 60’s. I remember this guy named Sergio Oliva that I watched train a few times. Find some pictures of him on the internet. He was a MONSTER. He must have been on something.

  12. “Anything that can add to our years and make them healthier and better should be applauded and not criminalized or demonized.”

    “sigh”

  13. Your prior statement bears no proof and yet as with your a number of other comments you cite it as if it were proof positive, while demanding proof from others. Statements you made like the one I quoted above, as well as, “There’s nothing wrong with anyone deciding to take them or not take them.” and too many others again bear no proof, ignore the obvious; hence the “sigh”

    If you did even the minimal amount of research you would see that in the medical/scientific community that there is indeed plenty of information that steroid use is not only questionable yet also potentially dangerous. The National Institute on Drug Abuse states there are more than “70 physical and psychological side effects, many irreversible from steroid abuse.” Interestingly enough, your model of great health who you cited as someone not affected in any bad way by steroids, Jose Canseco has indeed been suffering from his use of PED’s, many of which are cited by the NIDA. Canseco has been suffering from low energy, infertility, loss of sex drive and his own body’s inability to actually create testosterone. So, now like President Kennedy’s situation of developing addison’s from steroid use, Canseco has killed his body’s ability to produce a vitally important hormone.

    If you are really serious about opening your eyes to both sides than you at least need to begin to start doing some research on both sides and not just one. To start your research go to: “http://www.drugabuse.gov/drugpages/steroids.html”
    Do some research there to begin to see the medically researched effects of steroids as well as the wide-spread addictive use by school-age children.

    Go here for more specific info by the “Journal of Addictive Disorders”
    “http://www.breining.edu/jad04kk.pdf”

    The Mayo Clinic on the risks of PED’s
    “http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/performance-enhancing-drugs/HQ01105″

    Even here at Johns Hopkins, when citing the positive medical uses of steroids for severe health problems, there are (as I suggested that you look up a number of times ) a world of side-effects that patients have to be cautious of for what are much lower doses than athletes would take.
    “http://www.hopkinslupus.org/lupus-treatment/lupus-medications/steroids/”

    There are many more sources of info besides that.

  14. Alvy,
    Read what Doug had to say and give it some thought. Nobody as far as I know is forcing you to take anything you don’t want to take. Why not worry about your life and letting the rest of us make decisions on our own? Where do you get off trying to tell others what they should do? Based on what? Your feelings? What Alvy likes and doesn’t like? Sorry, life doesn’t work that way and no one is listening anyway. Your job is to mind Alvy’s business and no one else.
    People do all kinds of crazy, dumb things I wouldn’t do and that disagree with, but it’s none of my business to to tell them what to do. I’m not smart enough to tell everyone what to think or how to act and I haven’t found anyone else who qualifies to play god. Life is hard enough and when you get a bit older, you might come to realize that taking care of yourself is the only thing you should concern yourself with. Sometimes we need someone to tell us to mind our own business.

  15. I used to go to the weight lifting message boards and hear the “Holy Crusaders” and all their ramblings about “how bad the PED’s are” and “how it is our duty to do what is morally right”. You CAN NOT legislate morally as much as you can not and do not have the right to tell others what they can and can not do as long as they are not harming anyone else. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is intended for ALL citizens. I may not agree with what somebody is doing but as long as it doesn’t affect me I am not losing any sleep over it. I think the real issue here is that some people refuse to lose an arguement and just can’t be wrong.

  16. “I think the real issue here is that some people refuse to lose an arguement and just can’t be wrong.” I think it applies far more to Vinnie than it does me.

    All I was doing was citing facts and information about medically confirmed and researched issues with steroids. I agree that steroids can serve a purpose, I am using them for that purpose under a physicians care! I am not in disagreement with that! I never did dispute its use for health and illness. It is a drug to be treated with respect. Even when used wisely it is still has significant side-effects. So I don’t know where your coming from with this comment. I dispute its underhanded, unregulated use by unqualified people and the fact that it did indeed affect the lives of teens and adolescents who fell prey to the temptation to use PED’s to compete on the same level. If you choose to deem that a loss of an argument thats fine with me. Enjoy.

  17. Alvy,
    Stop trying to run the world and the lives of others and you’ll feel a whole lot better. Time to grow up and live yours and not everyone else’s life. If making heroes out of athletes makes life better for you, by all means have at it. You don’t need my permission to be all you can be or as an excuse for your short comings.
    You’ll find in life that there are no level playing fields and such that exist, exist only in the minds of those who choose self delusion and illusion to the stark reality. Could that be the real reason for what’s upseting you so much? The world out there isn’t as pure as the one Alvy wants it to be. Guess what? The world doesn’t care what you want. That’s all I’ve been trying to point out to you. One day you’ll come to realize that this isn’t a criticism of you personally, but I’m only pointing out some flaws in your expectations and thinking.

  18. I live about 45 miles from Sioux City, Ia and know some guys that lift weights in the health clubs there. I have been told that Sioux City has several high school athletes buying/using PED’s from a couple of bodybuilders in the area. My kids go to a school with 150 kids in the high school. Last night I talked to a couple of the coaches at a school function that informed me that they have a drug prevention program at the school and monitor the kinds of weights the athletes are lifting. If someone gets real strong and big in a hurry, they suspect drug use. This has not happened, yet, and it shows since the football team doesn’t have any large players and the basketball team has alot of tall skinny guys. In fact, my 15 yr old son is among the biggest boys in the school at 6’3 and 250 lbs but he only participates in FFA and small group speech and multi media club. He wants to be a screen writer someday and live in the U.K.. He used to be in rodeo when he was younger but saw how cripled up my father and I am after years of bull riding, bull dogging and bronc busting. That being said, I think coaches tend to look the other way when the team is winning. Kind of sad.

  19. Vinnie your world of illusion is remarkable. You need to take your own advice with your constant polemics and over surety about what you think is right. Your personal attacks are the ice-cream on your cake of your self-delusion. I [provided facts as a means of pointing out that there was indeed something to consider here. You never had any factual replies. You only came back opinions and eventually abuse. So, in your world Vinnie’s opinions equal someone else’s statistics and reported facts. Enjoy that “logic”, it won’t play in the real-world. But I’m sure deep down you know that. Good luck.

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